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Sujet : Quel est la durée de vie moyenne d'un lutteur de sumo ?

  1. #1

    Quel est la durée de vie moyenne d'un lutteur de sumo ?

    Vu la riche nourriture prise par les lutteurs j'aimerais savoir quelle est la durée de vie d'un sumo.

  2. #2
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    J'ai lu quelquepart sur ce site que c'était environ 65 ans.(si tu parles bien d'espérance de vie)

  3. #3
    Modérateur Avatar de toonoryu
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    Il n'y a jamais eu de véritables statistiques à ce niveau là, mais on peut subodorer qu'ils vivent un peu moins que la moyenne nationale, qui est toutefois au Japon l'une des plus élevées au monde. Il faut aussi prendre en compte le rythme de l'entraînement physique avant et après l'intai pour jauger les risques en terme de santé que prennent les rikishi, dont beaucoup doivent considérablement réduire leurs portions une fois leur carrière terminée s'ils ne veulent pas s'exposrer à des désagréments de type diabète, goutte, etc. il n'y a donc pas vraiment de règle en la matière, des lutteurs comme Onokuni, Konishiki ou Akebono n'ont presque pas perdu de poids après leur intai, tandis que les Terao, Kirishima et autre Takanohana sont restés ou redevenus sveltes.

  4. #4
    Ye. Grosse différence entre les "gros naturels" qui sont en surpoids toute leur vie - avant, pendant ou après le sumo - et les "forçats de la bouffe" qui se forcent pour prendre du poids puis le perdent. Un lutteur comme Takanohana II n'a passé "que" une dizaine d'années en grand surpoids, ou à peine plus, et il ne serait pas surprenant que les conséquences cardiovasculaires soient moins "lourdes" que pour des lutteurs en excès "constant"...
    Il faut aussi prendre en compte certains métabolismes exceptionnels. Konishiki est un des lutteurs les plus lourds que le sumo ait connu, et paradoxalement, à 45 ans son état de santé est étonnament bon... C'est apparemment de son propre chef qu'il a décidé de se faire poser un anneau gastrique et non sous une pression "médicale".

    Enfin, il faut prendre en compte de nombreux facteurs extérieurs au seul régime alimentaire. Bon nombre de lutteurs absorbent des quantités impressionnantes d'alcool, et il y a/a eu des très gros fumeurs... Futagoyama oyakata, de mémoire, en a payé le tribut.

    Bref, tout dépend d'à quoi on veut comparer l'espérance de vie des rikishi. A l'adulte occidental standard? Au mâle japonais moyen? Au japonais en grand surpoids standard? A l'occidental en grand surpoids moyen? Ou au sportif de haut niveau classique?

    Le Sumo est un tout petit monde. Faire des statistiques épidémiologiques est assez périlleux à un instant donné de l'histoire... Par contre une retrospectives des lutteurs des divisions les plus hautes est possible grâce à des bases de données comme sumo reference. Mais il faut se méfier ensuite des interprétations...

  5. #5
    Modérateur Avatar de toonoryu
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    Rien à redire... juste, pour ce qui concerne Konoshiki, je crois qu'il n'a en effet pas subi de son propre aveu de pression médicale, mais toutefois la présence d'antécédents de diabète chez pas mal de membres de sa famille l'a poussé vers cette opération.

    Sinon, Futagoyama oyakata est en effet décédé d'un cancer de la bouche à 55 ans (et je crois pour l'anecdote qu'il fumait sur son lit d'hôpital alors qu'il était à l'article de la mort, et qu'il demanda à se faire enterrer avec un paquet de Lucky Strike dans la poche de son vestion...)

  6. #6
    Je rajouterais que dire que la nourriture prise par les lutteurs est "riche" est lui aussi un point très discutable.

    Si l'on s'en tient au chanko nabe, le plat de base des lutteurs, il n'a absolument rien de "riche" au sens où on l'entend : rien de frit, pas de sucres, pratiquement rien de gras, essentiellement des légumes, du bouillon et des poissons... c'est très sain au contraire.

    Par contre, c'est la répétition de ces repas dans une journée, les quantités absorbées, les siestes immédiatement après les repas et enfin les plus que probables à coté, qui rendent les lutteurs plus gros, à force. Comme le souligne Toonoryu, il y a parfois l'alcool ; on a régulièrement vu des images de rikishi s'enfournant des repas de fast food ou de la glace ; lu Kirishima nous raconter tous les oeufs crus qu'il s'enfilait le matin au réveil pour atteindre les 130kg, et ainsi de suite.

    Mais comme le dit X-Philo, ce sont des comportements au cas par cas, dont il est très difficile de tirer des généralités.

    Satori

  7. #7
    Senior Member Avatar de liclic
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    C'est vrai que le repas en tant que tel des lutteurs est sain et je suis bien d'accord avec vous de dire que c'est la somme de repas qui les empêchent d'être au mieux... Je reste persuadé que leur surmasse n'aide pas leur coeur notamment....
    Ceci est un secret.....


  8. #8
    Senior Member Avatar de Tadanobu
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    Ouaip, mais entre mes 30 kilos de surpoids venant de fast-food, d'alcool, de cacahuetes, et de sédentarité, et les 50 d'Ama qui fait le sport pour 10 personnes, du tofu, du riz, des patates douces... a foison, je pense qu'il est largement en meilleur état cardio-vasculaire que moi, pas de risque d'obstruction par le méchant gras des arteres, zou !

    Maintenant, il faut citer LA maladie des lutteurs: le diabête. Evidemment, la moindre prédisposition se paye comptant dans ces régimes. Plus l'alcool chez beaucoup, qui aboutit des fois au cumul pas bon.

    Globalement, je pense qu'ils sont également légèrement "aidés médicalement", mais LARGEMENT moins que des footballeurs, cyclistes, haltérophiles... pour citer uniquement des exemples célèbres. Je dirais pas trop, trop gênant encore sportivement ni médicalement.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Avatar de Asafan
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    Voici une interview de la NHK d'un bon nombre de sekitori à qui l'on avait demandé, en juillet 2004 s'ils aimaient boire et quelles étaient leurs boissons favorites. Malheureusement c'est en anglais, et je n'ai pas vraiment le temps de traduire. Mais ce n'est pas trop difficile à comprendre. Désolée pour les non-anglophones

    Enjoy...

    Asasekiryu Taro
    ---------------
    "I can't drink any strong alcohol stuff like whiskey, Japanese shochu, or
    Arkhi (Mongolian vodka). Perhaps I can drink several glasses of beer at one
    time. I go out drinking with the Yokozuna sometimes. Once I get drunk, I
    become very quiet.
    Basically I drink when I want to
    drink. If I am pressured to go for drinking, I feel like I don't want to
    drink at all."

    Aminishiki Ryuji
    ----------------
    "My relatives can drink quite a bit but I am more of a social drinker. I
    don't particularly like drinking but I like to go for a few drinks now and
    then. Especially when a basho is over, I can relax among good friends.
    My drinking buddies are Kaiho and Toki-zeki as well as those from Aomori.
    Mostly I drink Shochu but I can go for anything. I mostly drink for
    relaxing."

    Iwakiyama Ryuta
    ---------------
    "I guess, for superstition, I drink when I lose a bout. I drink about five
    large glasses of beer one time. Usually follow it with a bottle of Shochu. I
    used to drink three bottles of Shochu and a bottle of Japanese sake but now
    I don't drink that much. People often tell me that once I get drunk, I get
    pretty obnoxious and start rambling but I never remember it at all..."

    Kaiho Ryuji
    -----------
    "I like Shochu especially. I don't care if it's from a particular maker or
    brand. I started drinking during my college days but if I drink it neat, I
    get drunk quickly so now I mix it with water. I'd rather go drinking with
    a bunch of people than drinking alone. I drink during a basho too, there is
    nothing like a good drink after a win."

    Kakizoe Toru
    ------------
    "I cannot drink too much. perhaps several glasses of draft beer. I often
    drink local Shochu from back home in Oita. Last year after a heya party, I
    drank too much and I lost my consciousness. Apparently I started going
    after a tax driver who was taking me back home. If I may, I'd like to
    apologize for my behaviour to the driver and Buyuzan-zeki who took care of
    me then. I am sorry."

    Kasugao Katsumasa
    -----------------
    "I like all kinds of liquor, not just Korean ones. I especially like sweet
    drinks - I once drank 30 glasses of this drink made of vodka, coconut milk
    and pinapple juice. Delicious! I didn't even have a hangover the next day.
    But I cannot take Japanese Shochu. I have no trouble with Korean Shochu so
    I have no idea."

    Kyokushuzan Noboru
    ------------------
    "I get Mongolian vodka from home every month, about 20 large beer bottle
    size. In Mongolia, it's essential to have one for any social gathering. When
    you visit someone, you always take one with you. That's why you need it so
    many. But right now my favorite drink is Shochu. I only drink when there is
    something good happens. I never drink when I am upset or for trying to
    forget bad incidents etc."

    Kyokutenho Masaru
    -----------------
    "I don't dislike drinking. First, beer. Well that's not a liquor. OK it's
    not just water but when it's hot or after a round of golf, there is nothing
    like a cold glass of beer. I can go for half a dozen large glasses. As for
    Mongolian, it's vodka. Now that is the drink. Friends often bring them back
    from home but that's not a kind of thing you want to drink so much."

    Kinkaizan Ryu
    -------------
    "Well a glass of beer is my limit. Even then I hate drinking it. I know
    whether Japanese sake or wine, it tastes good and I like it. It goes well
    with food and I understand the food tastes better with some alcoholic
    beverages compared to Coke or Oolong tea.
    But it's my body chemistry. I just go all red. It's pitiful really."

    Kokkai Futoshi
    --------------
    "I don't drink so much but if I drink at all it will be wine. I can go for
    three bottles of wine at one time. Occasionally I drink vodka with my
    father and grandfather. In Georgia every family makes their own wine. When
    I go back home, that is what I drink.
    Personnally our home made wine tastes best. I drank it when I got home just
    prior to the May Basho. I think that contributed positively to the record in
    the
    May."

    Kotonowaka Terumasa
    -------------------
    "Beer, Japanese sake, Shochu, I can go for anything.
    If it's wine, I remember I drank seven or eight bottles one time. I
    especially like wine and cheese. For a bottle of wine, I can go for two
    plate full of blue cheese easily. I also put a lot of parmesan cheese on
    pasta. I often empty out the whole parmesan cheese box and there is nothing
    left for anyone else!"

    Kotomitsuki Keiji
    -----------------
    "I am not into any 'adult' type of drink like brandy.
    My favorite is a sour mixed with something like Calpis (carbonated yogurt
    flavored drink). I like the sweetness. I used to order it since my college
    days. I found not many places have it on the menu. I once especially got
    made it for me at a Ginza bar. If I cannot get it at all, I usually settle
    with a grapefruit sour (sour in Japan are often made with Shochu).

    Kotoryu Hiroo
    -------------
    "I like Shochu. I especially like the one made from potato, that unique
    flavor and taste I really go for.
    I can drink it neat, with ice or water. I like drinking slow so I can slowly
    get drunk. I often get the Shochu information from friends in Kagoshima and
    they send specially unique potato Shochu to me. I have done quite a bit of
    research on it. I just hope I can display a sumo style as unique as those
    potato Shochu."

    Shimotori Norio
    ---------------
    "I guess I am in the middle camp - neither hate it nor like it so much. I
    don't go drinking by myself. One time at the University I had an experience
    of drinking Shochu mixed with sports drink and got totally smashed. Ever
    since that time, I usually pretend I get drunk and leave quickly to prevent
    a possible major disaster from happening. When I drink I feel my limbs go
    weak. But I like going out drinking with good friends. Mostly I am drinking
    Shochu now."

    Jumonji Tomokazu
    ----------------
    "I am from Aomori so I often am asked if I like Japanese sake. To be honest
    I don't like it. Since the time when I was a new recruit, I was forced to
    drink it and got smashed. My favorite is Shochu. Recently I am drinking
    brown sugar Shochu. I like its sweet aroma and flavor in my mouth. I also
    found it doesn't give me a bad morning-after. But then again if you drink
    too much, it's all same."

    Takanowaka Yuki
    ---------------
    "People think I am a good drinker but actually I can't drink. A glass for
    cheers is just about my limit. When I am asked for one during a heya
    function, I just tell them frankly I do not drink. I think it's better than
    having someone pour you a drink and not touch it as I consider that is more
    of bad etiquette. Now I hope everyone understands."

    Takamisakari Seiken
    -------------------
    "I can drink anything but I like draft beer best. I drink about five or six
    glasses but I get drunk very quickly. I also need a good selection of
    finger food to go with it. Sashimi, meat, anything is OK but if there are a
    lot of good stuff, I can drink quite a bit more. What happens when I get
    drunk? Well I become more cheerful.
    But then some suggest that I am already way too cheerful..."

    Takekaze Akira
    --------------
    "Well, for me, drinking and 'the 54 Club' go together.
    It's a pretty well known drinking gettogether for rikishis. It's made up of
    those rikishis born in the Showa Year 54 (1979). I was really happy that
    Hokutoarashi and Kainowaka invited someone like me, a college grad.
    Wheneve there is something happens to a member, we get together. We can talk
    about anything. It's a club that makes you feel a strong bonding beyond
    ordinary winning and losses."

    Tamanoshima Arata
    -----------------
    "Right now I don't drink at all. One time in my College days, I was staying
    in a dorm and went to a senior's room. There what we called 'clearing the
    room' and we started drinking any bottle lining up on the shelves, like
    Japanese sake, Shochu, whiskey. He had everything. And obviously there was a
    total mayham ensued. Now whether at a party or reception, I just drink tea.
    I am living healthy and spending quiet evenings these days."

    Chiyotakai Ryuji
    ----------------
    "Actually I cannot hold liquor at all. People say I don't look that way but
    my body cannot take it and I am not a good drinker. If I go out perhaps with
    a meal, I may, but even then only a few times in month.
    My limit is several glasses of Shochu with ice. My folks in Oita don't drink
    so there is no alcohol there. Perhpas it's in the bloodline. But even when I
    am drinking, I know I don't like it at all."

    Dejima Takeharu
    ---------------
    "I am a beer drinker. I happen to like only a specific brand from a specific
    maker. When I was a kid, I tasted beer my parents were drinking and I
    thought I'd never drink such a sour stuff in my life but now I like it best.
    Especially after you sweat a lot, it's the ultimate. If I ever win 70
    straight matches or so, I am wondering if the beer company put me on their
    commercial..."

    Toki Susumu
    -----------
    "While in Tokyo, I tend to go straight to home but at other bashos, I tend
    to go out drinking every night. I can hold a lot of liquor well and one time
    I really went for Shochu too. I can drink pretty much everything except
    Japanese sake. I like going drinking locally made liquor with lots of my
    buddies. I guess having a good time is my hobby. My rikishi friends can all
    drink a lot."

    Tokitsumi Masashiro
    -------------------
    "Well I cannot drink so...." (and the talk stops).
    (Anything to relax with ?)
    "I enjoy spending time with my family." (then starts talking about his six
    month old son.) "He can tell when I am on the dohyo and now calls me
    'Papa'."

    Tokitenku Yoshiaki
    ------------------
    "In cold Mongolia, a lot of people drink. But drinking 40% vodka will give
    me a headache so I don't drink much. Once I arrived in Japan, at the
    University I often asked to go for drinking by seniors and I used to drink
    Japanese sake, which I like. But now I just settle with a bottle or two of
    beer. When I go out with my Monglian friends, I may drink a glass of vodka
    with juice as I look out of place not drinking at all."

    Tosanoumi Toshio
    ----------------
    "I can't drink even a drop of alcohol. If I drink even a little bit, I get
    sick and start sleeping. Last time I drank was when the seniors at
    university forced me to go for drinking. I rather like sweet stuff like
    cakes and cream parfait. I used to order it after a meal at restaurant. But
    now for health reasons, I am refraining from sweet things. I really want to
    eat them but I am trying my best to stick with the resolve."

    Tochiazuma Daisuke
    -------------------
    "If asked perhaps I go for a Shochu but I hardly drink at all now and I am
    not a good drinker. Once when I suffered consecutive losses, trying to
    change the luck, I drank a lot till late. I didn't remember how much I drank
    and I missed a morning training session with a bad hangover. Anyway I was
    sober by the time I got on the dohyo but obviously it did not lead into any
    good results and I have been regretting it ever since."

    Tochisakae Atsushi
    ------------------
    "I can't drink alcohol at all. Even in my own wedding ceremony and
    reception, I was drinking oolong tea.
    Actually I don't mind it all all
    but when I had a muscle separation, doctors recommended me not to drink any
    carbonated drink. Now that is totally another story as far as I was
    concerned. I have been drinking the stuff ever since I was a little kid.
    When I see people drinking it nearby, I go crazy but I know it's for my
    health so I try to be patient. Just telling myself, be patient."

    Tochinonada Taiichi
    --------------------
    "Well let me put it this way. I just took out from the fridge the last of
    four beers I bought six months ago.
    I only drink when a friend
    visits me. I don't believe it's fitting to drink while having a meal with
    kids. It's not that I dislike drinking. If I drink, it will be Shochu, with
    water. The best ones come from Kyushu. I wonder if my seniors from Kyushu
    are reading this..."



    Toyozakura Yasukatsu
    --------------------
    "I like drinking but I usually don't drink at heya or alone. All I can
    manage is a glass of draft beer and a bottle of Shochu. Schochu has less
    calories so I think it's better. Once I went out with a group of sekitori
    and had a drinking challenge. I totally blanked out then. I hope one day
    soon, both myself and my older brother
    (Kitazakura) can have a good drink together as Makuuchi rikishis."

    Hakuo Shou
    ----------
    "For a promotion or getting a Sansho award, we raise our cups. But the
    content of my cup won't be alochol until the next March when I become 20
    years old. " (In Japan the legal drinking age is 20 years or older.) In
    Mongolia adults drink horse milk liquor. My dad who was a Mongolian yokozuna
    was amazing. He could drink and drink and he looked exactly the same..."

    Hayateumi Hidehito
    ------------------
    "Before I joined Ozumo, while going to university I used to drink a lot. I
    just drank Japanese sake. I needed nothing else, no snack, no food. I just
    sat quietly and kept drinking. Once I joined Ozumo, I reduced my drinking
    intake and ate more so I gained more weight. I believed back in the college
    days I drank three bottles of Japanese sake one time but I don't remember it
    too well. When you think about it now, it's a good memory."

    Harunoyama Tatsunao
    -------------------
    "I was never a drinker and I don't drink much now.
    But I like Shochu. My oyakata (former Ozeki
    Wakashimazu) is from Kagoshima so we have a good selection of Potato Shochu
    at heya so I started drinking a bit now and then, mixing it with water or
    ice. I don't know if you are aware of this, some Shochu are very popular now
    so it's very difficult to get a well known brand."

    Futeno Izumi
    ------------
    "I am trying to be sensible so it won't affect me the next day. Having said
    that once I drank five bottles of wine so you could say I am a drinker.
    After I got promoted to Makuuchi, I get more occasions to be invited by
    supporters for drinks so I have more opportunity. But the most important
    thing is to maintain good health. Often the supporters send an ecouragement
    note the next day so I try to make me more motivated to train hard to go
    higher in the banzuke."

    Buyuzan Takeshi
    ---------------
    "I love Shochu. Lately I am beginning to be able to discern the differences.
    I especially look forward to go for non-Tokyo bashos as I can try out a
    special local or regional brand.
    Especially this particular place I go in Osaka.
    Initially they did not stock any Shochu. I told them how much I loved
    Shochu, they began to get more and more. Right now they have over 100
    different brands. I think now that they have so many, I have to put a
    challenge to myself to drink them all."

    Hokutouriki Hideki
    ------------------
    "I can drink but I don't try to drink so often. One time all of us at the
    heya went for drinking and started drinking red and white wine alternating.
    After a while I started getting sick and rushed to the washroom but I saw my
    oyakata going in there ahead of me. I could not knock nor yell. Inside of me
    I was screaming to him to get out of there quickly. I just remember it was
    like a life and death struggle."


    Miyabiyama Tetsushi
    -------------------
    "I like drinking. Perhpas a bottle of Japanese sake or so. I guess that's
    average. Of course I don't try to drink that much during a basho. But once
    you start losing a lot, you may go for drinking to change the luck. You can
    forger about the bad stuff and can sleep well. The trouble I have is there
    are so many people who can drink a lot are around here. Especially if I go
    out with my best sekitori buddy, W-zeki, I normally come back as a total
    wreck."

    Musoyama Masashi
    ----------------
    "Right now my favorite is 'Tantakatan'. It's a perilla flavored Shochu.
    About four years I discovered it during Hokkaido Jyungyo. It's an easy
    quaffable liquor with a great after-taste and I became the fan right away.
    Back then I could not find it around Tokyo but now we started seeing some
    appear here so it's great."

    Wakatoba Hiromi
    ---------------
    "I am not a good drinker. Just a glass of draft and I am drunk. So I really
    am not fussy about what I drink.
    When I drink, it's when I go out with lots of friends and have good time. A
    couple of years ago, after a friend and I drank 95% alcohol drink, I started
    spewing bubbles off my mouth and lost consiousness. I was immediately taken
    to a hospital with acute alcohol poisoning. Since then I am definitely
    refraining from drinking a lot."

    Wakanosato Shinobu
    -------------------
    "It's rare that I ask for a drink. I like having people around and the
    atmosphere it brings but I cannot bring myself to drink. In my case it is
    the eating I enjoy. If I eat till full, I can forget about all the unplesant
    things that happened and will give me more energy. Now being married for two
    months, my favorite time is enjoying my wife's meal together.
    There is simply nothing better."


    Otsukasa Nobuhide
    -----------------
    "I don't like it. I used to get smashed with only two glasses of sour. Back
    in my University days, it was pretty tough as I was forced to drink. Coupled
    with hard sumo training, I felt there was one more mountain I needed to go
    past. So now even if I am presented with a very expensive liquor, I think I
    can drink it without a problem but I can never feel it as delicious. I guess
    that's what I regret most."

    Kaio Hiroyuku
    -------------
    "OK, it's true when I was younger, just like what everyone says, I could
    have drank a great deal. But nine years ago when I lost 20Kg, I started
    reviewing my food intake and I started eating right and refrained from heavy
    drinking. Especially in Tokyo, I have a place to go home to so it's been a
    while I had one of those 'Bravely Legend' people tell you about. You have to
    trust me. It's true. Honestly."

    Asashoryu
    ----------
    "I may drink alone at home sometimes but I like drinking with a lot of
    people. I am getting into vodka recently. I like drinking hard liquor
    cleanly. I have a good selection of vodka at home. I am getting shipped from
    a friend in Russia and some are very unique. But there is nothing like a
    good drink after winning the Yusho."



    Merci à Jonosuke qui avait mis l'article en ligne, et à Gernobono qui me l'a retrouvé.

  10. #10
    Merci pour ces interviews, assez intéressant de voir les habitudes et la face cachée de chacun. Par contre ils tiennent l'alcool les bougres!!

    J'imagine même pas boire 5 ou 6 bouteilles de vin rouge, je tomberais avant.

    Sur le poids, il est important de ne pas faire de généralité. Comme la fait remarqué X-Philohana, il faut ajouter l'alcool et bien différencier les natures physiques de chacun. Cependant être pendant 10 ans en surpoids ne sera jamais qqchose de positif pour la santé, et cela personne le conteste. Mais le fait que ce soit fait dans un cadre sportif, avec un accompagnement médical et sur un régime plus quantitatif que qualitatif limite la casse.

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