Rikishis et alcool pour grossir?

[Shikoree]

Je regardais hier un documentaire (explo.doc) consacré au Japon, et on y voyait la présentatrice partager le déjeûner avec un rikishi, le plus haut classé de sa heya (ils ne disaient pas laquelle, et je n'ai pas reconnu le lutteur). Le lutteur accompagnait son chanko de saké et disait : j'en prends plusieurs fois par jour pour grossir car pour prendre du poids, un verre de saké (il prenait un fond dans un grand verre)= un bol de riz.

Et en effet, si je fais le calcul :

1g glucide (comme dans le riz) = 4 calories
1g alcool pur = 7 calories
(1g protéiné = 4 calories, 1g lipide = 9 calories)

imaginons le bol à 70 g de riz sec : 240 calories
le verre de saké (40%) de 10 cl (c'est ce qu'il avait l'air de prendre) = 40g d'alcool pur = 280 calories

L'alcool est donc une manière très facile de prendre du poids, et le liquide passe plus facilement que le solide. Ma question est donc : est-ce courant chez les rikishis de boire pour grossir, quel est le pourcentage qui le font, et est-ce que ça ne pose pas des problèmes d'alcoolisme? (surtout en fin de carrière : savent-ils s'arrêter?)

Shikorée

[Satori]

Je doute qu'ils pratiquent couramment ce "gavage" là, en tous cas dans leur cadre quotidien. C'est un peu comme si tu disais : "pourquoi ne mangent ils pas au MacDo tous les jours, c'est bon pour grossir".

Tout simplement parce que grossir n'est qu'une composante de l'ensemble, et qu'il ne faut pas grossir n'importe comment ; tout simplement parce que si tu te nourris n'importe comment tu n'es plus capable de t'entrainer correctement, parce que ça rend ton corps malade et faible.

Prendre du gras est facile en se gavant de mayo/ketchup, mais tu noteras que le chako nabe est tout sauf bourré de mauvaises graisses, c'est tout l'inverse. Il doit y avoir une raison non?

Alors il est probable que certains rikishi pratiquent la boisson comme un plus pour prendre facilement quelques grammes de plus, mais je ne les vois pas faire ça à longueur de journée, ça me parait clairement aberrant, leur corps leur ferait payer trop vite. C'est ce que je pense en tous cas...

Satori

[toonoryu]

Tout est affaire de volonté. Le sujet de l'alcool a déjà été abordé, de mémoire. Certains grands rikishi actuels (Kaio, je crois bien, par exemple), sans être considérés comme des alcooliques, boivent pas mal (saké, bière surtout). Lorsqu'il a entamé son changement d'alimentation pour retrouver un poids normal, Takanohana a complètement supprimé la bière des produits qu'il pouvait absorber (ainsi que le riz, il ne consommait plus que le chanko-nabe).

Sinon, pour ce qui concerne l'addiction, certains lutteurs en furent victimes, dont le Samoan Nankariyu, qui arrêta sa carrière pour continuer à s'adonner à la boisson (il devenait violent sous alcool et son oyakata l'avait sommé de choisir entre la dive bouteille et le sumo). IL avait le potentiel d'une grande carrière pourtant puisqu'il avait été choisi parmi 300 candidats par Takamiyama et Konishiki pour ses qualités.

Musashimaru et Konishiki pouvaient boire beaucoup, bien que n'ayant jamais été considérés comme alcooliques. Anecdote sympa aussi pour le 24° yokozuna Ootori, qui se présenta un jour pour son dohyo-iri tellement déchiré qu'il tomba à la renverse pendant qu'il l'exécutait, et dût être aidé par son tsuyuharai. Il le finit tout de même.

[konishiki]

Le gros risque , en cas d'abus , c'est aussi le diabète.
La maladie professionnelle des Rikishi.
Takanosato , brillant Yokozuna était touché par ce fléau. Un Yokozuna étant très courtisé. Takanosato ne buvait plus lors de ces festivitées.
Pour beaucoup il paraissait hautain. Il ne buvait plus et décliner les verres d'alcool.
Hélas , il était malade et non pas hautain. :wink:
Suite à cette maladie , il ecrivit un livre où il aborde divers problèmes et notamment l'alcool.

Akebono en parle aussi dans sa bio.
Il avait stopper la boisson et avait coupé 20 cm à son mawashi.

[Shikoree]

A noter que plus on a de poids, mieux on supporte l'alcool puisqu'il se dilue dans plus de sang... Je ne défierais pas Akebono dans un concours de boisson (pas plus que n'importe où ailleurs d'ailleurs :wink: ). (sauf peut-être dans un marathon :twisted: )

[Namimaru]

le verre de saké (40%) de 10 cl (c'est ce qu'il avait l'air de prendre) = 40g d'alcool pur = 280 calories

Sauf que le saké ne fait pas 40° mais plutôt 16 à 17°, soit 120 calories au maximum pour 10 cl.

[Shikoree]

le verre de saké (40%) de 10 cl (c'est ce qu'il avait l'air de prendre) = 40g d'alcool pur = 280 calories

Sauf que le saké ne fait pas 40° mais plutôt 16 à 17°, soit 120 calories au maximum pour 10 cl.

ça me rassure un peu sur ce que buvait ce brave homme :), pcq je me vois mal me prendre 10 cl d'alcool à 40 degrés comme ça (genre vodka). Côté calorie, je suppose que ça contient pas mal de sucre également, ce qui rajoute malgré l'alcool en moins par rapport à ce que je pensais.

En tous cas là le rikishi disait clairement que lui avait vraiment du mal à prendre du poids, et que lui mangeait beaucoup moins que d'autre rikishi. Et il disait qu'il prenait plusieurs fois par jour du saké pour prendre du poids justement. C'est vrai que je suppose que c'est une solution uniquement pour ceux qui ont vraiment du mal, j'aimerais bien retrouver qui c'était en fait :)

[Shikoree]

Après vérification, 134 calories pour 10 cl de saké (il y a quelques glucides). Il prend des petits bols de riz, notre rikishi mystère... Ou des grands bols de saké :)

[Miyabiyama]

L'alcool et les rikishis, un sujet fort intéressant.

Kirishima en fait quelques allusions dans son bouquin.

Sinon, je me permet de citer un extrait de l'excellent article "Meat Bomb", consacré à Konishiki:

Selon la presse populaire, Konishiki a fêté son 28ème anniversaire en décembre dernier en descendant 120 canettes de bière, 10 verres de tequila et 10 whiskies. "C'est ridicule" proteste Konishiki "Je ne bois jamais de whisky".

Alors, la bière et la tequila ? "Ca n'est vrai qu'en partie. Les 10 tequilas sont vraies, mais j'ai bu plus de 120 canettes de bière".

[Shikoree]

Alors, la bière et la tequila ? "Ca n'est vrai qu'en partie. Les 10 tequilas sont vraies, mais j'ai bu plus de 120 canettes de bière". [/b]

:twisted: Respect! :twisted: :wink:

[Asafan]

L'alcool et les rikishis, un sujet fort intéressant
A ce propos, je me permets de citer un article du magazine de la NHK Sumo Chukei, qui demandait aux rikishi de la makuuchi de l'époque (Nagoya basho 2004, je crois) de parler de leurs boissons alcoolisées favorites, plus spécialement les liqueurs. Malheureusement, c'est en anglais, et je n'ai pas vraiment le temps de le traduire, mais c'est assez facile à comprendre, il me semble. J'avais adoré lire ça, à l'époque. Si quelqu'un se sent d'en faire la traduction, qu'il n'hésite surtout pas :wink:

La mise en page sort un peu bizarrement, mais je ne sais pas comment corriger ça :?


Asasekiryu Taro
---------------
"I can't drink any strong alcohol stuff like whiskey, Japanese shochu, or
Arkhi (Mongolian vodka). Perhaps I can drink several glasses of beer at one time. I go out drinking with the Yokozuna sometimes. Once I get drunk, I become very quiet. Basically I drink when I want to
drink. If I am pressured to go for drinking, I feel like I don't want to
drink at all."

Aminishiki Ryuji
----------------
"My relatives can drink quite a bit but I am more of a social drinker. I
don't particularly like drinking but I like to go for a few drinks now and
then. Especially when a basho is over, I can relax among good friends.
My drinking buddies are Kaiho and Toki-zeki as well as those from Aomori.
Mostly I drink Shochu but I can go for anything. I mostly drink for
relaxing."

Iwakiyama Ryuta
---------------
"I guess, for superstition, I drink when I lose a bout. I drink about five
large glasses of beer one time. Usually follow it with a bottle of Shochu. I
used to drink three bottles of Shochu and a bottle of Japanese sake but now I don't drink that much. People often tell me that once I get drunk, I get pretty obnoxious and start rambling but I never remember it at all..."

Kaiho Ryuji
-----------
"I like Shochu especially. I don't care if it's from a particular maker or
brand. I started drinking during my college days but if I drink it neat, I
get drunk quickly so now I mix it with water. I'd rather go drinking with
a bunch of people than drinking alone. I drink during a basho too, there is
nothing like a good drink after a win."

Kakizoe Toru
------------
"I cannot drink too much. perhaps several glasses of draft beer. I often
drink local Shochu from back home in Oita. Last year after a heya party, I
drank too much and I lost my consciousness. Apparently I started going
after a tax driver who was taking me back home. If I may, I'd like to
apologize for my behaviour to the driver and Buyuzan-zeki who took care of me then. I am sorry."

Kasugao Katsumasa
-----------------
"I like all kinds of liquor, not just Korean ones. I especially like sweet
drinks - I once drank 30 glasses of this drink made of vodka, coconut milk
and pinapple juice. Delicious! I didn't even have a hangover the next day.
But I cannot take Japanese Shochu. I have no trouble with Korean Shochu so I have no idea."

Kyokushuzan Noboru
------------------
"I get Mongolian vodka from home every month, about 20 large beer bottle size. In Mongolia, it's essential to have one for any social gathering. When you visit someone, you always take one with you. That's why you need it so many. But right now my favorite drink is Shochu. I only drink when there is something good happens. I never drink when I am upset or for trying to forget bad incidents etc."

Kyokutenho Masaru
-----------------
"I don't dislike drinking. First, beer. Well that's not a liquor. OK it's
not just water but when it's hot or after a round of golf, there is nothing
like a cold glass of beer. I can go for half a dozen large glasses. As for
Mongolian, it's vodka. Now that is the drink. Friends often bring them back
from home but that's not a kind of thing you want to drink so much."

Kinkaizan Ryu
-------------
"Well a glass of beer is my limit. Even then I hate drinking it. I know
whether Japanese sake or wine, it tastes good and I like it. It goes well
with food and I understand the food tastes better with some alcoholic
beverages compared to Coke or Oolong tea. But it's my body chemistry. I just go all red. It's pitiful really."

Kokkai Futoshi
--------------
"I don't drink so much but if I drink at all it will be wine. I can go for
three bottles of wine at one time. Occasionally I drink vodka with my
father and grandfather. In Georgia every family makes their own wine. When I go back home, that is what I drink. Personnally our home made wine tastes best. I drank it when I got home just prior to the May Basho. I think that contributed positively to the record in the May."

Kotonowaka Terumasa
-------------------
"Beer, Japanese sake, Shochu, I can go for anything.
If it's wine, I remember I drank seven or eight bottles one time. I
especially like wine and cheese. For a bottle of wine, I can go for two
plate full of blue cheese easily. I also put a lot of parmesan cheese on
pasta. I often empty out the whole parmesan cheese box and there is nothing left for anyone else!"

Kotomitsuki Keiji
-----------------
"I am not into any 'adult' type of drink like brandy. My favorite is a sour mixed with something like Calpis (carbonated yogurt flavored drink). I like the sweetness. I used to order it since my college days. I found not many places have it on the menu. I once especially got made it for me at a Ginza bar. If I cannot get it at all, I usually settle with a grapefruit sour (sour in Japan are often made with Shochu).

Kotoryu Hiroo
-------------
"I like Shochu. I especially like the one made from potato, that unique
flavor and taste I really go for. I can drink it neat, with ice or water. I like drinking slow so I can slowly get drunk. I often get the Shochu information from friends in Kagoshima and they send specially unique potato Shochu to me. I have done quite a bit of research on it. I just hope I can display a sumo style as unique as those potato Shochu."

Shimotori Norio
---------------
"I guess I am in the middle camp - neither hate it nor like it so much. I
don't go drinking by myself. One time at the University I had an experience of drinking Shochu mixed with sports drink and got totally smashed. Ever since that time, I usually pretend I get drunk and leave quickly to prevent a possible major disaster from happening. When I drink I feel my limbs go weak. But I like going out drinking with good friends. Mostly I am drinking Shochu now."

Jumonji Tomokazu
----------------
"I am from Aomori so I often am asked if I like Japanese sake. To be honest I don't like it. Since the time when I was a new recruit, I was forced to drink it and got smashed. My favorite is Shochu. Recently I am drinking brown sugar Shochu. I like its sweet aroma and flavor in my mouth. I also found it doesn't give me a bad morning-after. But then again if you drink too much, it's all same."

Takanowaka Yuki
---------------
"People think I am a good drinker but actually I can't drink. A glass for
cheers is just about my limit. When I am asked for one during a heya
function, I just tell them frankly I do not drink. I think it's better than
having someone pour you a drink and not touch it as I consider that is more of bad etiquette. Now I hope everyone understands."

Takamisakari Seiken
-------------------
"I can drink anything but I like draft beer best. I drink about five or six
glasses but I get drunk very quickly. I also need a good selection of
finger food to go with it. Sashimi, meat, anything is OK but if there are a
lot of good stuff, I can drink quite a bit more. What happens when I get
drunk? Well I become more cheerful.
But then some suggest that I am already way too cheerful..."

Takekaze Akira
--------------
"Well, for me, drinking and 'the 54 Club' go together.
It's a pretty well known drinking gettogether for rikishis. It's made up of
those rikishis born in the Showa Year 54 (1979). I was really happy that
Hokutoarashi and Kainowaka invited someone like me, a college grad.
Wheneve there is something happens to a member, we get together. We can talk about anything. It's a club that makes you feel a strong bonding beyond ordinary winning and losses."

Tamanoshima Arata
-----------------
"Right now I don't drink at all. One time in my College days, I was staying
in a dorm and went to a senior's room. There what we called 'clearing the
room' and we started drinking any bottle lining up on the shelves, like
Japanese sake, Shochu, whiskey. He had everything. And obviously there was a total mayham ensued. Now whether at a party or reception, I just drink tea. I am living healthy and spending quiet evenings these days."

Chiyotakai Ryuji
----------------
"Actually I cannot hold liquor at all. People say I don't look that way but
my body cannot take it and I am not a good drinker. If I go out perhaps with a meal, I may, but even then only a few times in month.
My limit is several glasses of Shochu with ice. My folks in Oita don't drink
so there is no alcohol there. Perhpas it's in the bloodline. But even when I
am drinking, I know I don't like it at all."

Dejima Takeharu
---------------
"I am a beer drinker. I happen to like only a specific brand from a specific
maker. When I was a kid, I tasted beer my parents were drinking and I
thought I'd never drink such a sour stuff in my life but now I like it best.
Especially after you sweat a lot, it's the ultimate. If I ever win 70
straight matches or so, I am wondering if the beer company put me on their commercial..."

Toki Susumu
-----------
"While in Tokyo, I tend to go straight to home but at other bashos, I tend
to go out drinking every night. I can hold a lot of liquor well and one time
I really went for Shochu too. I can drink pretty much everything except
Japanese sake. I like going drinking locally made liquor with lots of my
buddies. I guess having a good time is my hobby. My rikishi friends can all
drink a lot."

Tokitsumi Masashiro
-------------------
"Well I cannot drink so...." (and the talk stops).
(Anything to relax with ?)
"I enjoy spending time with my family." (then starts talking about his six
month old son.) "He can tell when I am on the dohyo and now calls me
'Papa'."

Tokitenku Yoshiaki
------------------
"In cold Mongolia, a lot of people drink. But drinking 40% vodka will give
me a headache so I don't drink much. Once I arrived in Japan, at the
University I often asked to go for drinking by seniors and I used to drink
Japanese sake, which I like. But now I just settle with a bottle or two of
beer. When I go out with my Monglian friends, I may drink a glass of vodka with juice as I look out of place not drinking at all."

Tosanoumi Toshio
----------------
"I can't drink even a drop of alcohol. If I drink even a little bit, I get
sick and start sleeping. Last time I drank was when the seniors at
university forced me to go for drinking. I rather like sweet stuff like
cakes and cream parfait. I used to order it after a meal at restaurant. But
now for health reasons, I am refraining from sweet things. I really want to
eat them but I am trying my best to stick with the resolve."

Tochiazuma Daisuke
-------------------
"If asked perhaps I go for a Shochu but I hardly drink at all now and I am
not a good drinker. Once when I suffered consecutive losses, trying to
change the luck, I drank a lot till late. I didn't remember how much I drank and I missed a morning training session with a bad hangover. Anyway I was sober by the time I got on the dohyo but obviously it did not lead into any good results and I have been regretting it ever since."

Tochisakae Atsushi
------------------
"I can't drink alcohol at all. Even in my own wedding ceremony and
reception, I was drinking oolong tea. Actually I don't mind it all all
but when I had a muscle separation, doctors recommended me not to drink any carbonated drink. Now that is totally another story as far as I was concerned. I have been drinking the stuff ever since I was a little kid.
When I see people drinking it nearby, I go crazy but I know it's for my
health so I try to be patient. Just telling myself, be patient."

Tochinonada Taiichi
--------------------
"Well let me put it this way. I just took out from the fridge the last of
four beers I bought six months ago. I only drink when a friend
visits me. I don't believe it's fitting to drink while having a meal with
kids. It's not that I dislike drinking. If I drink, it will be Shochu, with
water. The best ones come from Kyushu. I wonder if my seniors from Kyushu are reading this..."


Toyozakura Yasukatsu
--------------------
"I like drinking but I usually don't drink at heya or alone. All I can
manage is a glass of draft beer and a bottle of Shochu. Schochu has less
calories so I think it's better. Once I went out with a group of sekitori
and had a drinking challenge. I totally blanked out then. I hope one day
soon, both myself and my older brother (Kitazakura) can have a good drink together as Makuuchi rikishis."

Hakuho Shou
----------
"For a promotion or getting a Sansho award, we raise our cups. But the
content of my cup won't be alochol until the next March when I become 20
years old. " (In Japan the legal drinking age is 20 years or older.) In
Mongolia adults drink horse milk liquor. My dad who was a Mongolian yokozuna was amazing. He could drink and drink and he looked exactly the same..."

Hayateumi Hidehito
------------------
"Before I joined Ozumo, while going to university I used to drink a lot. I
just drank Japanese sake. I needed nothing else, no snack, no food. I just
sat quietly and kept drinking. Once I joined Ozumo, I reduced my drinking intake and ate more so I gained more weight. I believed back in the college days I drank three bottles of Japanese sake one time but I don't remember it too well. When you think about it now, it's a good memory."

Harunoyama Tatsunao
-------------------
"I was never a drinker and I don't drink much now.
But I like Shochu. My oyakata (former Ozeki Wakashimazu) is from Kagoshima so we have a good selection of Potato Shochu at heya so I started drinking a bit now and then, mixing it with water or ice. I don't know if you are aware of this, some Shochu are very popular now so it's very difficult to get a well known brand."

Futeno Izumi
------------
"I am trying to be sensible so it won't affect me the next day. Having said
that once I drank five bottles of wine so you could say I am a drinker.
After I got promoted to Makuuchi, I get more occasions to be invited by
supporters for drinks so I have more opportunity. But the most important
thing is to maintain good health. Often the supporters send an ecouragement note the next day so I try to make me more motivated to train hard to go higher in the banzuke."

Buyuzan Takeshi
---------------
"I love Shochu. Lately I am beginning to be able to discern the differences. I especially look forward to go for non-Tokyo bashos as I can try out a special local or regional brand. Especially this particular place I go in Osaka. Initially they did not stock any Shochu. I told them how much I loved Shochu, they began to get more and more. Right now they have over 100 different brands. I think now that they have so many, I have to put a challenge to myself to drink them all."

Hokutouriki Hideki
------------------
"I can drink but I don't try to drink so often. One time all of us at the
heya went for drinking and started drinking red and white wine alternating.
After a while I started getting sick and rushed to the washroom but I saw my oyakata going in there ahead of me. I could not knock nor yell. Inside of me I was screaming to him to get out of there quickly. I just remember it was like a life and death struggle."


Miyabiyama Tetsushi
-------------------
"I like drinking. Perhpas a bottle of Japanese sake or so. I guess that's
average. Of course I don't try to drink that much during a basho. But once you start losing a lot, you may go for drinking to change the luck. You can forger about the bad stuff and can sleep well. The trouble I have is there are so many people who can drink a lot are around here. Especially if I go out with my best sekitori buddy, W-zeki, I normally come back as a total wreck."

Musoyama Masashi
----------------
"Right now my favorite is 'Tantakatan'. It's a perilla flavored Shochu.
About four years I discovered it during Hokkaido Jyungyo. It's an easy
quaffable liquor with a great after-taste and I became the fan right away.
Back then I could not find it around Tokyo but now we started seeing some appear here so it's great."

Wakatoba Hiromi
---------------
"I am not a good drinker. Just a glass of draft and I am drunk. So I really
am not fussy about what I drink. When I drink, it's when I go out with lots of friends and have good time. A couple of years ago, after a friend and I drank 95% alcohol drink, I started spewing bubbles off my mouth and lost consiousness. I was immediately taken to a hospital with acute alcohol poisoning. Since then I am definitely refraining from drinking a lot."

Wakanosato Shinobu
-------------------
"It's rare that I ask for a drink. I like having people around and the
atmosphere it brings but I cannot bring myself to drink. In my case it is
the eating I enjoy. If I eat till full, I can forget about all the unplesant
things that happened and will give me more energy. Now being married for two months, my favorite time is enjoying my wife's meal together.
There is simply nothing better."


Otsukasa Nobuhide
-----------------
"I don't like it. I used to get smashed with only two glasses of sour. Back
in my University days, it was pretty tough as I was forced to drink. Coupled with hard sumo training, I felt there was one more mountain I needed to go past. So now even if I am presented with a very expensive liquor, I think I can drink it without a problem but I can never feel it as delicious. I guess that's what I regret most."

Kaio Hiroyuku
-------------
"OK, it's true when I was younger, just like what everyone says, I could
have drank a great deal. But nine years ago when I lost 20Kg, I started
reviewing my food intake and I started eating right and refrained from heavy drinking. Especially in Tokyo, I have a place to go home to so it's been a while I had one of those 'Bravely Legend' people tell you about. You have to trust me. It's true. Honestly."

Asashoryu
----------
"I may drink alone at home sometimes but I like drinking with a lot of
people. I am getting into vodka recently. I like drinking hard liquor
cleanly. I have a good selection of vodka at home. I am getting shipped from a friend in Russia and some are very unique. But there is nothing like a good drink after winning the Yusho."


...That's all, folks. Cheers :wink:

[oo]

Tiens pour en remettre une couche et rigoler comme d'hab :lol:

Je tiens à préciser que la densité moyenne de l'alcool est de 0.8 cher confrère, donc

10cl à 40° = 40*0.8= 32 gr d alcool d'où = 32*7 = 224 calories

et donc il vaut toujours mieux manger du riz ............ :lol:

(remarque si il fait canard avec son saké, on doit dépasser ........ 8O )

[Shikoree]

Hé ben, quand ils s'y mettent ils savent boire des quantités assez incroyables!

Qu'est-ce exactement que ce Shochu dont ils ont l'air si friands?

[toonoryu]

Google est ton ami... une petite recherche permet parfois d'avoir à poser des questions. Le shochu est de l'alcool distillé à partir de riz, orge, sarrasin, pomme de terre ou patate douce, à Kyushu. Titrant entre 25 et 43°, il est plus fort que le saké (qui est obtenu par simple fermentation à base de riz uniquement).

[Tadanobu]

Le sochu est une habitude "de table" récente au Japon, mais le succes a été grand il y a quelques années, je dirais une dizaine d'années ? Aujourd'hui, je dirais qu'il reste nettement plus populaire que le saké sur les tables, dans les restaurant... Même s'il est moins "ancré" dans l'image.

[Miyabiyama]

Très très intéressant, en particulier Kotonowaka!! 8O Ses 7 ou 8 bouteilles de vin, accompagnées de 2 assiettes de fromage par bouteille, sont impressionnates!!

Merci beaucoup Asafan!