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fandesumosuisse
07/04/2008, 14h27
Vu la riche nourriture prise par les lutteurs j'aimerais savoir quelle est la durée de vie d'un sumo.

Der
07/04/2008, 14h39
J'ai lu quelquepart sur ce site que c'était environ 65 ans.(si tu parles bien d'espérance de vie)

toonoryu
07/04/2008, 16h10
Il n'y a jamais eu de véritables statistiques à ce niveau là, mais on peut subodorer qu'ils vivent un peu moins que la moyenne nationale, qui est toutefois au Japon l'une des plus élevées au monde. Il faut aussi prendre en compte le rythme de l'entraînement physique avant et après l'intai pour jauger les risques en terme de santé que prennent les rikishi, dont beaucoup doivent considérablement réduire leurs portions une fois leur carrière terminée s'ils ne veulent pas s'exposrer à des désagréments de type diabète, goutte, etc. il n'y a donc pas vraiment de règle en la matière, des lutteurs comme Onokuni, Konishiki ou Akebono n'ont presque pas perdu de poids après leur intai, tandis que les Terao, Kirishima et autre Takanohana sont restés ou redevenus sveltes.

X-Philohana
07/04/2008, 16h32
Ye. Grosse différence entre les "gros naturels" qui sont en surpoids toute leur vie - avant, pendant ou après le sumo - et les "forçats de la bouffe" qui se forcent pour prendre du poids puis le perdent. Un lutteur comme Takanohana II n'a passé "que" une dizaine d'années en grand surpoids, ou à peine plus, et il ne serait pas surprenant que les conséquences cardiovasculaires soient moins "lourdes" que pour des lutteurs en excès "constant"...
Il faut aussi prendre en compte certains métabolismes exceptionnels. Konishiki est un des lutteurs les plus lourds que le sumo ait connu, et paradoxalement, à 45 ans son état de santé est étonnament bon... C'est apparemment de son propre chef qu'il a décidé de se faire poser un anneau gastrique et non sous une pression "médicale".

Enfin, il faut prendre en compte de nombreux facteurs extérieurs au seul régime alimentaire. Bon nombre de lutteurs absorbent des quantités impressionnantes d'alcool, et il y a/a eu des très gros fumeurs... Futagoyama oyakata, de mémoire, en a payé le tribut.

Bref, tout dépend d'à quoi on veut comparer l'espérance de vie des rikishi. A l'adulte occidental standard? Au mâle japonais moyen? Au japonais en grand surpoids standard? A l'occidental en grand surpoids moyen? Ou au sportif de haut niveau classique?

Le Sumo est un tout petit monde. Faire des statistiques épidémiologiques est assez périlleux à un instant donné de l'histoire... Par contre une retrospectives des lutteurs des divisions les plus hautes est possible grâce à des bases de données comme sumo reference. Mais il faut se méfier ensuite des interprétations...

toonoryu
07/04/2008, 16h40
Rien à redire... juste, pour ce qui concerne Konoshiki, je crois qu'il n'a en effet pas subi de son propre aveu de pression médicale, mais toutefois la présence d'antécédents de diabète chez pas mal de membres de sa famille l'a poussé vers cette opération.

Sinon, Futagoyama oyakata est en effet décédé d'un cancer de la bouche à 55 ans (et je crois pour l'anecdote qu'il fumait sur son lit d'hôpital alors qu'il était à l'article de la mort, et qu'il demanda à se faire enterrer avec un paquet de Lucky Strike dans la poche de son vestion...)

Satori
07/04/2008, 18h16
Je rajouterais que dire que la nourriture prise par les lutteurs est "riche" est lui aussi un point très discutable.

Si l'on s'en tient au chanko nabe, le plat de base des lutteurs, il n'a absolument rien de "riche" au sens où on l'entend : rien de frit, pas de sucres, pratiquement rien de gras, essentiellement des légumes, du bouillon et des poissons... c'est très sain au contraire.

Par contre, c'est la répétition de ces repas dans une journée, les quantités absorbées, les siestes immédiatement après les repas et enfin les plus que probables à coté, qui rendent les lutteurs plus gros, à force. Comme le souligne Toonoryu, il y a parfois l'alcool ; on a régulièrement vu des images de rikishi s'enfournant des repas de fast food ou de la glace ; lu Kirishima nous raconter tous les oeufs crus qu'il s'enfilait le matin au réveil pour atteindre les 130kg, et ainsi de suite.

Mais comme le dit X-Philo, ce sont des comportements au cas par cas, dont il est très difficile de tirer des généralités.

Satori

liclic
07/04/2008, 23h22
C'est vrai que le repas en tant que tel des lutteurs est sain et je suis bien d'accord avec vous de dire que c'est la somme de repas qui les empêchent d'être au mieux... Je reste persuadé que leur surmasse n'aide pas leur coeur notamment....

Tadanobu
08/04/2008, 05h39
Ouaip, mais entre mes 30 kilos de surpoids venant de fast-food, d'alcool, de cacahuetes, et de sédentarité, et les 50 d'Ama qui fait le sport pour 10 personnes, du tofu, du riz, des patates douces... a foison, je pense qu'il est largement en meilleur état cardio-vasculaire que moi, pas de risque d'obstruction par le méchant gras des arteres, zou !

Maintenant, il faut citer LA maladie des lutteurs: le diabête. Evidemment, la moindre prédisposition se paye comptant dans ces régimes. Plus l'alcool chez beaucoup, qui aboutit des fois au cumul pas bon.

Globalement, je pense qu'ils sont également légèrement "aidés médicalement", mais LARGEMENT moins que des footballeurs, cyclistes, haltérophiles... pour citer uniquement des exemples célèbres. Je dirais pas trop, trop gênant encore sportivement ni médicalement.

Asafan
08/04/2008, 23h52
Voici une interview de la NHK d'un bon nombre de sekitori à qui l'on avait demandé, en juillet 2004 s'ils aimaient boire et quelles étaient leurs boissons favorites. Malheureusement c'est en anglais, et je n'ai pas vraiment le temps de traduire. Mais ce n'est pas trop difficile à comprendre. Désolée pour les non-anglophones :oops:

Enjoy...

Asasekiryu Taro
---------------
"I can't drink any strong alcohol stuff like whiskey, Japanese shochu, or
Arkhi (Mongolian vodka). Perhaps I can drink several glasses of beer at one
time. I go out drinking with the Yokozuna sometimes. Once I get drunk, I
become very quiet.
Basically I drink when I want to
drink. If I am pressured to go for drinking, I feel like I don't want to
drink at all."

Aminishiki Ryuji
----------------
"My relatives can drink quite a bit but I am more of a social drinker. I
don't particularly like drinking but I like to go for a few drinks now and
then. Especially when a basho is over, I can relax among good friends.
My drinking buddies are Kaiho and Toki-zeki as well as those from Aomori.
Mostly I drink Shochu but I can go for anything. I mostly drink for
relaxing."

Iwakiyama Ryuta
---------------
"I guess, for superstition, I drink when I lose a bout. I drink about five
large glasses of beer one time. Usually follow it with a bottle of Shochu. I
used to drink three bottles of Shochu and a bottle of Japanese sake but now
I don't drink that much. People often tell me that once I get drunk, I get
pretty obnoxious and start rambling but I never remember it at all..."

Kaiho Ryuji
-----------
"I like Shochu especially. I don't care if it's from a particular maker or
brand. I started drinking during my college days but if I drink it neat, I
get drunk quickly so now I mix it with water. I'd rather go drinking with
a bunch of people than drinking alone. I drink during a basho too, there is
nothing like a good drink after a win."

Kakizoe Toru
------------
"I cannot drink too much. perhaps several glasses of draft beer. I often
drink local Shochu from back home in Oita. Last year after a heya party, I
drank too much and I lost my consciousness. Apparently I started going
after a tax driver who was taking me back home. If I may, I'd like to
apologize for my behaviour to the driver and Buyuzan-zeki who took care of
me then. I am sorry."

Kasugao Katsumasa
-----------------
"I like all kinds of liquor, not just Korean ones. I especially like sweet
drinks - I once drank 30 glasses of this drink made of vodka, coconut milk
and pinapple juice. Delicious! I didn't even have a hangover the next day.
But I cannot take Japanese Shochu. I have no trouble with Korean Shochu so
I have no idea."

Kyokushuzan Noboru
------------------
"I get Mongolian vodka from home every month, about 20 large beer bottle
size. In Mongolia, it's essential to have one for any social gathering. When
you visit someone, you always take one with you. That's why you need it so
many. But right now my favorite drink is Shochu. I only drink when there is
something good happens. I never drink when I am upset or for trying to
forget bad incidents etc."

Kyokutenho Masaru
-----------------
"I don't dislike drinking. First, beer. Well that's not a liquor. OK it's
not just water but when it's hot or after a round of golf, there is nothing
like a cold glass of beer. I can go for half a dozen large glasses. As for
Mongolian, it's vodka. Now that is the drink. Friends often bring them back
from home but that's not a kind of thing you want to drink so much."

Kinkaizan Ryu
-------------
"Well a glass of beer is my limit. Even then I hate drinking it. I know
whether Japanese sake or wine, it tastes good and I like it. It goes well
with food and I understand the food tastes better with some alcoholic
beverages compared to Coke or Oolong tea.
But it's my body chemistry. I just go all red. It's pitiful really."

Kokkai Futoshi
--------------
"I don't drink so much but if I drink at all it will be wine. I can go for
three bottles of wine at one time. Occasionally I drink vodka with my
father and grandfather. In Georgia every family makes their own wine. When
I go back home, that is what I drink.
Personnally our home made wine tastes best. I drank it when I got home just
prior to the May Basho. I think that contributed positively to the record in
the
May."

Kotonowaka Terumasa
-------------------
"Beer, Japanese sake, Shochu, I can go for anything.
If it's wine, I remember I drank seven or eight bottles one time. I
especially like wine and cheese. For a bottle of wine, I can go for two
plate full of blue cheese easily. I also put a lot of parmesan cheese on
pasta. I often empty out the whole parmesan cheese box and there is nothing
left for anyone else!"

Kotomitsuki Keiji
-----------------
"I am not into any 'adult' type of drink like brandy.
My favorite is a sour mixed with something like Calpis (carbonated yogurt
flavored drink). I like the sweetness. I used to order it since my college
days. I found not many places have it on the menu. I once especially got
made it for me at a Ginza bar. If I cannot get it at all, I usually settle
with a grapefruit sour (sour in Japan are often made with Shochu).

Kotoryu Hiroo
-------------
"I like Shochu. I especially like the one made from potato, that unique
flavor and taste I really go for.
I can drink it neat, with ice or water. I like drinking slow so I can slowly
get drunk. I often get the Shochu information from friends in Kagoshima and
they send specially unique potato Shochu to me. I have done quite a bit of
research on it. I just hope I can display a sumo style as unique as those
potato Shochu."

Shimotori Norio
---------------
"I guess I am in the middle camp - neither hate it nor like it so much. I
don't go drinking by myself. One time at the University I had an experience
of drinking Shochu mixed with sports drink and got totally smashed. Ever
since that time, I usually pretend I get drunk and leave quickly to prevent
a possible major disaster from happening. When I drink I feel my limbs go
weak. But I like going out drinking with good friends. Mostly I am drinking
Shochu now."

Jumonji Tomokazu
----------------
"I am from Aomori so I often am asked if I like Japanese sake. To be honest
I don't like it. Since the time when I was a new recruit, I was forced to
drink it and got smashed. My favorite is Shochu. Recently I am drinking
brown sugar Shochu. I like its sweet aroma and flavor in my mouth. I also
found it doesn't give me a bad morning-after. But then again if you drink
too much, it's all same."

Takanowaka Yuki
---------------
"People think I am a good drinker but actually I can't drink. A glass for
cheers is just about my limit. When I am asked for one during a heya
function, I just tell them frankly I do not drink. I think it's better than
having someone pour you a drink and not touch it as I consider that is more
of bad etiquette. Now I hope everyone understands."

Takamisakari Seiken
-------------------
"I can drink anything but I like draft beer best. I drink about five or six
glasses but I get drunk very quickly. I also need a good selection of
finger food to go with it. Sashimi, meat, anything is OK but if there are a
lot of good stuff, I can drink quite a bit more. What happens when I get
drunk? Well I become more cheerful.
But then some suggest that I am already way too cheerful..."

Takekaze Akira
--------------
"Well, for me, drinking and 'the 54 Club' go together.
It's a pretty well known drinking gettogether for rikishis. It's made up of
those rikishis born in the Showa Year 54 (1979). I was really happy that
Hokutoarashi and Kainowaka invited someone like me, a college grad.
Wheneve there is something happens to a member, we get together. We can talk
about anything. It's a club that makes you feel a strong bonding beyond
ordinary winning and losses."

Tamanoshima Arata
-----------------
"Right now I don't drink at all. One time in my College days, I was staying
in a dorm and went to a senior's room. There what we called 'clearing the
room' and we started drinking any bottle lining up on the shelves, like
Japanese sake, Shochu, whiskey. He had everything. And obviously there was a
total mayham ensued. Now whether at a party or reception, I just drink tea.
I am living healthy and spending quiet evenings these days."

Chiyotakai Ryuji
----------------
"Actually I cannot hold liquor at all. People say I don't look that way but
my body cannot take it and I am not a good drinker. If I go out perhaps with
a meal, I may, but even then only a few times in month.
My limit is several glasses of Shochu with ice. My folks in Oita don't drink
so there is no alcohol there. Perhpas it's in the bloodline. But even when I
am drinking, I know I don't like it at all."

Dejima Takeharu
---------------
"I am a beer drinker. I happen to like only a specific brand from a specific
maker. When I was a kid, I tasted beer my parents were drinking and I
thought I'd never drink such a sour stuff in my life but now I like it best.
Especially after you sweat a lot, it's the ultimate. If I ever win 70
straight matches or so, I am wondering if the beer company put me on their
commercial..."

Toki Susumu
-----------
"While in Tokyo, I tend to go straight to home but at other bashos, I tend
to go out drinking every night. I can hold a lot of liquor well and one time
I really went for Shochu too. I can drink pretty much everything except
Japanese sake. I like going drinking locally made liquor with lots of my
buddies. I guess having a good time is my hobby. My rikishi friends can all
drink a lot."

Tokitsumi Masashiro
-------------------
"Well I cannot drink so...." (and the talk stops).
(Anything to relax with ?)
"I enjoy spending time with my family." (then starts talking about his six
month old son.) "He can tell when I am on the dohyo and now calls me
'Papa'."

Tokitenku Yoshiaki
------------------
"In cold Mongolia, a lot of people drink. But drinking 40% vodka will give
me a headache so I don't drink much. Once I arrived in Japan, at the
University I often asked to go for drinking by seniors and I used to drink
Japanese sake, which I like. But now I just settle with a bottle or two of
beer. When I go out with my Monglian friends, I may drink a glass of vodka
with juice as I look out of place not drinking at all."

Tosanoumi Toshio
----------------
"I can't drink even a drop of alcohol. If I drink even a little bit, I get
sick and start sleeping. Last time I drank was when the seniors at
university forced me to go for drinking. I rather like sweet stuff like
cakes and cream parfait. I used to order it after a meal at restaurant. But
now for health reasons, I am refraining from sweet things. I really want to
eat them but I am trying my best to stick with the resolve."

Tochiazuma Daisuke
-------------------
"If asked perhaps I go for a Shochu but I hardly drink at all now and I am
not a good drinker. Once when I suffered consecutive losses, trying to
change the luck, I drank a lot till late. I didn't remember how much I drank
and I missed a morning training session with a bad hangover. Anyway I was
sober by the time I got on the dohyo but obviously it did not lead into any
good results and I have been regretting it ever since."

Tochisakae Atsushi
------------------
"I can't drink alcohol at all. Even in my own wedding ceremony and
reception, I was drinking oolong tea.
Actually I don't mind it all all
but when I had a muscle separation, doctors recommended me not to drink any
carbonated drink. Now that is totally another story as far as I was
concerned. I have been drinking the stuff ever since I was a little kid.
When I see people drinking it nearby, I go crazy but I know it's for my
health so I try to be patient. Just telling myself, be patient."

Tochinonada Taiichi
--------------------
"Well let me put it this way. I just took out from the fridge the last of
four beers I bought six months ago.
I only drink when a friend
visits me. I don't believe it's fitting to drink while having a meal with
kids. It's not that I dislike drinking. If I drink, it will be Shochu, with
water. The best ones come from Kyushu. I wonder if my seniors from Kyushu
are reading this..."



Toyozakura Yasukatsu
--------------------
"I like drinking but I usually don't drink at heya or alone. All I can
manage is a glass of draft beer and a bottle of Shochu. Schochu has less
calories so I think it's better. Once I went out with a group of sekitori
and had a drinking challenge. I totally blanked out then. I hope one day
soon, both myself and my older brother
(Kitazakura) can have a good drink together as Makuuchi rikishis."

Hakuo Shou
----------
"For a promotion or getting a Sansho award, we raise our cups. But the
content of my cup won't be alochol until the next March when I become 20
years old. " (In Japan the legal drinking age is 20 years or older.) In
Mongolia adults drink horse milk liquor. My dad who was a Mongolian yokozuna
was amazing. He could drink and drink and he looked exactly the same..."

Hayateumi Hidehito
------------------
"Before I joined Ozumo, while going to university I used to drink a lot. I
just drank Japanese sake. I needed nothing else, no snack, no food. I just
sat quietly and kept drinking. Once I joined Ozumo, I reduced my drinking
intake and ate more so I gained more weight. I believed back in the college
days I drank three bottles of Japanese sake one time but I don't remember it
too well. When you think about it now, it's a good memory."

Harunoyama Tatsunao
-------------------
"I was never a drinker and I don't drink much now.
But I like Shochu. My oyakata (former Ozeki
Wakashimazu) is from Kagoshima so we have a good selection of Potato Shochu
at heya so I started drinking a bit now and then, mixing it with water or
ice. I don't know if you are aware of this, some Shochu are very popular now
so it's very difficult to get a well known brand."

Futeno Izumi
------------
"I am trying to be sensible so it won't affect me the next day. Having said
that once I drank five bottles of wine so you could say I am a drinker.
After I got promoted to Makuuchi, I get more occasions to be invited by
supporters for drinks so I have more opportunity. But the most important
thing is to maintain good health. Often the supporters send an ecouragement
note the next day so I try to make me more motivated to train hard to go
higher in the banzuke."

Buyuzan Takeshi
---------------
"I love Shochu. Lately I am beginning to be able to discern the differences.
I especially look forward to go for non-Tokyo bashos as I can try out a
special local or regional brand.
Especially this particular place I go in Osaka.
Initially they did not stock any Shochu. I told them how much I loved
Shochu, they began to get more and more. Right now they have over 100
different brands. I think now that they have so many, I have to put a
challenge to myself to drink them all."

Hokutouriki Hideki
------------------
"I can drink but I don't try to drink so often. One time all of us at the
heya went for drinking and started drinking red and white wine alternating.
After a while I started getting sick and rushed to the washroom but I saw my
oyakata going in there ahead of me. I could not knock nor yell. Inside of me
I was screaming to him to get out of there quickly. I just remember it was
like a life and death struggle."


Miyabiyama Tetsushi
-------------------
"I like drinking. Perhpas a bottle of Japanese sake or so. I guess that's
average. Of course I don't try to drink that much during a basho. But once
you start losing a lot, you may go for drinking to change the luck. You can
forger about the bad stuff and can sleep well. The trouble I have is there
are so many people who can drink a lot are around here. Especially if I go
out with my best sekitori buddy, W-zeki, I normally come back as a total
wreck."

Musoyama Masashi
----------------
"Right now my favorite is 'Tantakatan'. It's a perilla flavored Shochu.
About four years I discovered it during Hokkaido Jyungyo. It's an easy
quaffable liquor with a great after-taste and I became the fan right away.
Back then I could not find it around Tokyo but now we started seeing some
appear here so it's great."

Wakatoba Hiromi
---------------
"I am not a good drinker. Just a glass of draft and I am drunk. So I really
am not fussy about what I drink.
When I drink, it's when I go out with lots of friends and have good time. A
couple of years ago, after a friend and I drank 95% alcohol drink, I started
spewing bubbles off my mouth and lost consiousness. I was immediately taken
to a hospital with acute alcohol poisoning. Since then I am definitely
refraining from drinking a lot."

Wakanosato Shinobu
-------------------
"It's rare that I ask for a drink. I like having people around and the
atmosphere it brings but I cannot bring myself to drink. In my case it is
the eating I enjoy. If I eat till full, I can forget about all the unplesant
things that happened and will give me more energy. Now being married for two
months, my favorite time is enjoying my wife's meal together.
There is simply nothing better."


Otsukasa Nobuhide
-----------------
"I don't like it. I used to get smashed with only two glasses of sour. Back
in my University days, it was pretty tough as I was forced to drink. Coupled
with hard sumo training, I felt there was one more mountain I needed to go
past. So now even if I am presented with a very expensive liquor, I think I
can drink it without a problem but I can never feel it as delicious. I guess
that's what I regret most."

Kaio Hiroyuku
-------------
"OK, it's true when I was younger, just like what everyone says, I could
have drank a great deal. But nine years ago when I lost 20Kg, I started
reviewing my food intake and I started eating right and refrained from heavy
drinking. Especially in Tokyo, I have a place to go home to so it's been a
while I had one of those 'Bravely Legend' people tell you about. You have to
trust me. It's true. Honestly."

Asashoryu
----------
"I may drink alone at home sometimes but I like drinking with a lot of
people. I am getting into vodka recently. I like drinking hard liquor
cleanly. I have a good selection of vodka at home. I am getting shipped from
a friend in Russia and some are very unique. But there is nothing like a
good drink after winning the Yusho."


Merci à Jonosuke qui avait mis l'article en ligne, et à Gernobono qui me l'a retrouvé.

Sumo_Power
10/04/2008, 21h27
Merci pour ces interviews, assez intéressant de voir les habitudes et la face cachée de chacun. Par contre ils tiennent l'alcool les bougres!! 8O

J'imagine même pas boire 5 ou 6 bouteilles de vin rouge, je tomberais avant.

Sur le poids, il est important de ne pas faire de généralité. Comme la fait remarqué X-Philohana, il faut ajouter l'alcool et bien différencier les natures physiques de chacun. Cependant être pendant 10 ans en surpoids ne sera jamais qqchose de positif pour la santé, et cela personne le conteste. Mais le fait que ce soit fait dans un cadre sportif, avec un accompagnement médical et sur un régime plus quantitatif que qualitatif limite la casse.

X-Philohana
11/04/2008, 12h48
J'imagine même pas boire 5 ou 6 bouteilles de vin rouge, je tomberais avant.... de la même façon que je n'imagine pas faire 200 shiko en une seule série: je tomberais avant!
D'ailleurs qui te dit qu'eux ne tombent pas après? :lol:
Ceci dit, pour le vin rouge par exemple, si j'avais la masse de Kokkai... Eh, ça ne me semble pas forcément irréaliste... ;)

liclic
12/04/2008, 10h35
Déjà que 20 shikô de chaque jambe, tu en as plein les jambes alors 200 je préfère ne pas imaginer du tout...

pereboulon
12/04/2008, 11h13
Déjà que 20 shikô de chaque jambe, tu en as plein les jambes alors 200 je préfère ne pas imaginer du tout...

Bof, tu sais avec l'habitude. Je pense que quand tu dépasses les 100, tu peux tout aussi bien en faire mille (mais moi je m'endormirai avant).

liclic
12/04/2008, 11h14
Déjà que 20 shikô de chaque jambe, tu en as plein les jambes alors 200 je préfère ne pas imaginer du tout...

Bof, tu sais avec l'habitude. Je pense que quand tu dépasses les 100, tu peux tout aussi bien en faire mille (mais moi je m'endormirai avant).

Il va sans dire que je te prends au mot, la prochaine rencontre tu me feras 100 shikô de chaque jambe et au pas de course.... :P

pereboulon
12/04/2008, 11h19
Je n'ai pas dit que MOI j'étais capable d'aligner 100 shiko, mais avec de l'entrainement (beaucoup d'entrainement, genre tous les jours comme pour les vrais sumotori) on doit pouvoir y arriver.